Гутаркі ўдзельніка:SGrabarczuk (WMF)
Interface
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]Вітаю. Вялікая просьба вярнуць стары інтэрфэйс (вэктар 2010). Новы (2022) зьяўляецца ў найвышэйшай ступені нязручным, і нават непрыемным для вока. У якасьці ўдзельніка я, безумоўна, зьмяніў налады і вярнуў стары вэктар. Але праблема -- калі я жадаю проста пачытаць вікіпэдыю зь іншага кампутару, не залягінены. Хібаў шмат, прывяду толькі адзін прыклад: інтэрвікі, якімі стала вельмі нязручна карыстацца. Нагадаю, што большасьць буйных разьдзелаў Вікіпэдыі (напрыклад, ангельскі, нямецкі, швэдзкі і іншыя) захавалі стары выгляд. Дарэчы, з таго часу як францускі разьдзел зьмяніў вэктар, я больш амаль не карыстаюся ім, пры тым, што вольна валодаю францускай мовай. Зьдзіўляе таксама, ня толькі тое, што для экспэрымэнту абралі наш разьдзел, а што нас ніхто не спытаў! А калі мы былі пастаўленыя перад гэтым непрыемным фактам, то ў адпаведнай суполцы ў Тэлеграме было праведзена апытаньне, дзе з 12 адказаў 75% выказала сваю незадаволенасьць новым інтэрфэйсам. Упэўнены, што новы інтэрфэйс дэструктыўна ўплывае на разьвіцьцё Беларускае Вікіпэдыі, але для аматараў наватарства можна проста зрабіць нейкую кнопку, каб яны пераключалі свае налады, а ня мы. Вельмі спадзяюся, што Вы мяне пачуеце.--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:16, 5 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Вітаю! What you're writing is very important. I appreciate that. Thank you for all the arguments you've mentioned. Let me address a few points. I know that this isn't the best answer you hoped for. I'm being honest. Thank you again for your comments. Greetings from Warsaw! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:48, 9 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Hi! Thank you so much for your answers. I really apreciate that you´re honest! Me too! It´s why I try to make you pay the attention to this problem. Greeting from Stockholm!--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)
Interwiki
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]"Хібаў шмат, прывяду толькі адзін прыклад: інтэрвікі, якімі стала вельмі нязручна карыстацца" - What exactly do you think is problematic about interwiki? Over the years, we have discussed different aspects of the interwiki functionality. This is why I really need to know what you're referring to. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:48, 9 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- It was simple before: you could clicking on the left and switching to over language versions and back. Easy! Now, it is not on the same place, than you must open the list and so on and so on. As I mentioned, I reduced extremly to read the French version just because it´s very uncomfortable. Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Well, yes, for many experienced Wikipedians, that option was simpler. This is why we say that if someone doesn't like the change, they can choose the old Vector. However, experienced Wikipedians are a very special group of users. Meanwhile, our main goal is to improve the experience of the largest group (our viewers, readers) and new Wikipedians. We moved the interwiki links because we figured that it wasn't simple for them. For example, too many readers didn't know the links even existed. They would use an external search engine, like Google, to type e.g. "Minsk Wikipedia Belarusian" instead of going directly between Wikipedias. Here you have the detailed explanation. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 18:52, 14 лістапада 2022 (+03)
Risks
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]"Упэўнены, што новы інтэрфэйс дэструктыўна ўплывае на разьвіцьцё Беларускае Вікіпэдыі" - What exactly do you fear? What kind of risks do you see? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:48, 9 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- There will be a lot of people who will leave Wikipedia. If you want to do it better, let´s do it, but please, don´t make it worser!. Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Why do you believe many people would leave Wikipedia? What makes you think that? I mean some people have certainly been confused at first. A lot of things are different in this interface. But that's different from leaving altogether, right? And they can switch back to the old Vector. On the other hand, the statistics collected over the past three years don't show any drop. As I wrote in the Forum, "The skin does not negatively affect pageviews, edit rates, or account creation. There is evidence of increases in pageviews and account creation across partner communities." SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 18:52, 14 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Wait! I don´t know if it's me who missunderstood or it's maybe you: you wrote "...And they can switch back to the old Vector". Do you mean that any reader can switch back to the old Vector from any computer in the World without to be inlogged? If "yes", could you explane me how, please? Because that is the problem (and if there is any solution to this so in this case we don't need to continue our discussion).--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 20:33, 19 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Well, logged-out users need to log in to change the skin. There is a group of account holders who don't edit but use their accounts only because they want to set up their preferences. And as I wrote, we don't see any decrease of the overall readership. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:24, 21 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- So, I take once again my example (but there are a lot of similar examples, that's for sure): I used to read Wikipedia unlogged in 15 years (when I am inlogged, I contribute), and now you try to force me to be inlogged any time I want to read something on Wikipedia? Do you think it's normal? And how professional you are if you can't see that the problem existing? No decrease, you said -- maybe, but even if we ("the conservatives") are in minority, why don't you want to give us a possibility to do like we done in many years? I repeat: I see a solution with a creation of a special button witch help to switch from one vector to another with only one click and without to be inlogged! And I don't want to disappoint you, but I'm sure that those people who didn't knew that the interwikis existing when it was quite easy to see them, they will not guess how to manage the new version where all is hidden!--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 20:21, 22 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Hello @Lesnas ättling. What you're giving as an example is, as you're correctly addressing it, a minority. On a side note, it decreases over time as people learn how to use new things. And I understand that theoretically, we could build something for them. But why there's no simple toggle allowing logged-out users to switch back and forth - we've given the answer here. This is an infrastructural issue limiting all the features, everything, not just the skins. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 02:26, 24 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Hi, @SGrabarczuk (WMF). EVEN IF it´s a minority, it doesn´t mean that you have right to violate those/ours rights. I have really nothing against to learn new things (you can´t imagine how much I done it in my life and continue to do)! BUT: I have already described some examples why Vector 2022 is uncomfortable and bad, I also mantionned that 75% of Belarusian users (contributers) was against this experiment and we can imaging that it´s the same for readers. So, if it will be problematic to have two versions at the same time, so why don´t just leave the old one, that working good? You said that all feedbacks are welcome, but you just ignore them. Of course, you can continue to abuse you power and force us to accept this poor Vector-2022. But you will became dictators (when I write "you", I mean, of course, all the people who are responsable for this changing, not only you, Mr SGrabarczuk, so please, don´t missunderstand me). And I wonder: what will be the next step? To forbidden the (normal) books just because it´s existing electronic books and a lot of people use the second ones? Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 13:14, 27 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- I hear your irritation. You've dedicated plenty of your time pointing at different issues. (For which I thank you! I hope we will talk about the next project next year - below I explain the details.) I believe that some of these issues are of technical nature and may be resolved with technical solutions (like you can change colors with your CSS settings).
- Yes, I did, and it was just few examples to show how inconvenient and illogical the Vector 2022 is. One more example: why the interwiki in articles are placed up to the right, but on the main page it is down to the right? And why interwikis are not classified in the alphabetic order?
- I understand that there are more people like you, for example these 75% of active editors who use Telegram. (Which is different from 75% of all users, because readers are also users, and the new interface is mostly, but not exclusively, for them.)
- Of course, it can be different (maybe 65%, maybe 85%). And I repeat, my irritation is as a reader (user).
- We want to talk about improving specific things, in particular, possible troubles with gadgets and other local code.
- Why don´t just leave the old one, that working good - data proves that most of what we've done already is better. This interface was an experiment a year ago - now it's officially ready.
- Time will confirm that you´re wrong, especially that you are FORCING these changing.
- Our next project will be announced relatively soon, perhaps in January, and will be about further changes to the skin. I think it will be about exposing the community side of the wikis so that readers could better understand how people work here and how the quality of content works here. (We're still working on very basic parts, hence I think.)
- Sounds good, I hope that is not only "sounds".
- Currently, we're talking about different changes to the method how we work. One of the ideas is having discussions about more detailed topics much earlier in the development of the project, on more wikis. I'll gladly contact your community and ask you (anyone active here) to translate my messages so that more people could take part in the discussions.
- I hope you will find someone.--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:37, 8 сьнежня 2022 (+03)
- SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 06:28, 1 сьнежня 2022 (+03)
- Hi, @SGrabarczuk (WMF). EVEN IF it´s a minority, it doesn´t mean that you have right to violate those/ours rights. I have really nothing against to learn new things (you can´t imagine how much I done it in my life and continue to do)! BUT: I have already described some examples why Vector 2022 is uncomfortable and bad, I also mantionned that 75% of Belarusian users (contributers) was against this experiment and we can imaging that it´s the same for readers. So, if it will be problematic to have two versions at the same time, so why don´t just leave the old one, that working good? You said that all feedbacks are welcome, but you just ignore them. Of course, you can continue to abuse you power and force us to accept this poor Vector-2022. But you will became dictators (when I write "you", I mean, of course, all the people who are responsable for this changing, not only you, Mr SGrabarczuk, so please, don´t missunderstand me). And I wonder: what will be the next step? To forbidden the (normal) books just because it´s existing electronic books and a lot of people use the second ones? Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 13:14, 27 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Hello @Lesnas ättling. What you're giving as an example is, as you're correctly addressing it, a minority. On a side note, it decreases over time as people learn how to use new things. And I understand that theoretically, we could build something for them. But why there's no simple toggle allowing logged-out users to switch back and forth - we've given the answer here. This is an infrastructural issue limiting all the features, everything, not just the skins. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 02:26, 24 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- So, I take once again my example (but there are a lot of similar examples, that's for sure): I used to read Wikipedia unlogged in 15 years (when I am inlogged, I contribute), and now you try to force me to be inlogged any time I want to read something on Wikipedia? Do you think it's normal? And how professional you are if you can't see that the problem existing? No decrease, you said -- maybe, but even if we ("the conservatives") are in minority, why don't you want to give us a possibility to do like we done in many years? I repeat: I see a solution with a creation of a special button witch help to switch from one vector to another with only one click and without to be inlogged! And I don't want to disappoint you, but I'm sure that those people who didn't knew that the interwikis existing when it was quite easy to see them, they will not guess how to manage the new version where all is hidden!--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 20:21, 22 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Well, logged-out users need to log in to change the skin. There is a group of account holders who don't edit but use their accounts only because they want to set up their preferences. And as I wrote, we don't see any decrease of the overall readership. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:24, 21 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Wait! I don´t know if it's me who missunderstood or it's maybe you: you wrote "...And they can switch back to the old Vector". Do you mean that any reader can switch back to the old Vector from any computer in the World without to be inlogged? If "yes", could you explane me how, please? Because that is the problem (and if there is any solution to this so in this case we don't need to continue our discussion).--Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 20:33, 19 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Why do you believe many people would leave Wikipedia? What makes you think that? I mean some people have certainly been confused at first. A lot of things are different in this interface. But that's different from leaving altogether, right? And they can switch back to the old Vector. On the other hand, the statistics collected over the past three years don't show any drop. As I wrote in the Forum, "The skin does not negatively affect pageviews, edit rates, or account creation. There is evidence of increases in pageviews and account creation across partner communities." SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 18:52, 14 лістапада 2022 (+03)
White colors
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]Vector 2022 IS worser! It´s make pain in the eyes because of different placement and too light colors. Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Thanks, that's an aspect we may do something about. This amount of white had good test results (see the results of the community prototype testing), so we're sure it's good. But we're thinking about making more areas light grey instead of white. Now, I don't know if we change this. I'm just saying we may do this. In the meantime, you also can do this by editing your own CSS. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 18:52, 14 лістапада 2022 (+03)
Other wikis
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]"Большасьць буйных разьдзелаў Вікіпэдыі захавалі стары выгляд", "для экспэрымэнту абралі наш разьдзел"
- The versions you mentioned have the old look because we haven't changed it there yet. Before 2020 and early 2022, we changed the interface on about 30 different wikis as test wikis, where we performed various tests. But it's not the testing phase or experimentation any longer, although of course some things may be improved. So we're open to discussion. We may change some things.
- Now we're approaching different communities, asking for adjustments, feedback, etc. We started from the smallest Wikipedias and English Wikipedia, and next, we'll work with those of the mid-sized and the largest ones which we haven't contacted earlier. So for example, Swedish isn't changed yet, but Danish is.
SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:48, 9 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- 1. If you´re really do open to diskussion: I repeat, please, return to the old version and make the new one as an option, I mean, create a button that can easy helping to switch between the old and the new versions, with only one click and without needing to be inlogged. 2. What can I say? My compassion to the Danish... Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- As I wrote, based on the statistics, we know that this interface is better for most people than the old one. So in principle, we want it to be the default. We may also change things if you notice anything specific that should be changed - like that "it's too bright" problem. Also, we can help adjust gadgets, templates, and other community-created code on wiki. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 18:52, 14 лістапада 2022 (+03)
Forum
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]"Зьдзіўляе таксама, што нас ніхто не спытаў!" - I understand and I'm sorry. I see two issues here:
- Ideally, the messages should have be in Belarusian. These were in English instead. Perhaps this was the reason why it went unnoticed, even despite of the red button and images. If there's someone willing to translate my messages into Belarusian (perhaps Удзельнік:W?), I'll gladly run my announcements through that person.
- Also, as you have written on the Forum, you add new topics to the top instead of the bottom of the page. That's unfortunately very rare compared to other ~900 wikis, and somehow, when a mass message is sent, it goes to the bottom.
SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:48, 9 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Ok. But now you see that the problem existing! Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- Yeah. I hope I'll be able to fix the translation part in the future. Thanks! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 18:52, 14 лістапада 2022 (+03)
Editors' reactions
[рэдагаваць крыніцу]"Ў адпаведнай суполцы ў Тэлеграме было праведзена апытаньне, дзе з 12 адказаў 75% выказала сваю незадаволенасьць новым інтэрфэйсам", "Для аматараў наватарства можна проста зрабіць нейкую кнопку, каб яны пераключалі свае налады, а ня мы" - I understand. We don't want to break anyone's workflows or force anyone individually to use this skin. We believe it's better than the old one, we have some data (which I mentioned in my messages), but if someone prefers the old look, that's fine. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (гутаркі) 22:48, 9 лістапада 2022 (+03)
- But unfortenatuly, it´s seems like you do force us "the conservatives". I believe, I'm sure, that the old one is better. But if someone prefers the new look, I suggested a solution above, so if you really don't want to play a dictator, please hear me. Lesnas ättling (гутаркі) 12:07, 13 лістапада 2022 (+03)